User talk:Lightyears: Difference between revisions

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Since you agreed with my take on constellations, how about going ahead with an article on that claim? Will you clear my edits in it when its ready? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:45, 23 May 2014 (PDT)
Dear [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]]
I have completed the rough draft of 'Iddah article (https://wikiislam.net/index.php?title=User_talk:Lehrasap/Sandbox_1). It is requested to please have a look at it and advice the necessary edits and what to further do with it. Thanks.</br>
[[User:Lehrasap|Lehrasap]] ([[User talk:Lehrasap|talk]]) 23:03, 28 November 2021 (UTC)


I do agree on it as a theological issue, so I'd have no issue with an article on that (I think it should mention that it is also a general problem like with continents, mountains taking a long time to form, plants that we eat to evolve etc.). But I've never actually created a new article on here (people have copied a couple of my articles onto here since I made them under the Creative Commons license) so I don't know how or what the protocols are for doing so. I'm sure someone who runs the site (Axius?) could help.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 11:53, 23 May 2014 (PDT)
== Mecca article ==
:I asked because you check your own edits. First there's a sandbox , then when finished it will be a article and we will link it.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:05, 23 May 2014 (PDT)
::Just in case you mean to link to the new article from the scientific errors page, I don't think the link to the article should be put on there (as it's not a scientific error). I just meant that it's fine as a new article. Maybe there are more suitable places to link to it from. If you were to recreate a section on the scientific errors page to put your link to the new article, I'll leave it to others to decide whether to remove it, but I think you'd have to at least write in such a recreated section that this is not strictly a scientific error, but is a theological absurdity/difficulty.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 13:22, 23 May 2014 (PDT)
:::hi Lightyears, a new page can be made through the help page [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Help:Contents#How_to_Create_a_New_Page] although I believe the Constellation article is a lower priority. A higher priority for us should be to review the Scientific errors page so we can remove the under review template. Thanks for some of your edits in trying to fix some of these errors in that article.
:::In addition if you have any suggestions for the site of any kind, anything which you think should be done differently, anything you think would be beneficial for the site let me know. You have as much authority on this site as I do. I like for all of us to make decisions as a team. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:54, 23 May 2014 (PDT)
::::OK, thanks. I'll let you know if I think of anything [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 16:48, 23 May 2014 (PDT)


I have something I need to do as of today, so won't be able to do any more editing for the foreseeable future in case any one wonders. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 02:17, 24 May 2014 (PDT)
I have revised my proposed additions, mainly to standardise the references.
:Thanks Fernando, the ref formatting looks good, though a few extra tips will be useful: When you use the visual editor it seems to be adding the <code><nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki></code> tags to external links, which are not necessary (it's better if readers can click the link). I'm not sure why that's happening, but these tags can be removed via the source editor when you update the article itself if the same happens there (please feel free to go ahead and add your updates when you are ready).


== Geocentral Quran documents ==
:Quran verses should be cited using the <code><nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki></code> or <code><nowiki>{{Quran-range|||}}</nowiki></code> templates so they can be conveniently clicked by readers to check for themselves on the Quranx website. Wikipedia pages (which we sometimes cite for general overviews) can be linked using another tag in a format like this <code><nowiki>[[w:Petra|Petra]]</nowiki></code>, ‘Climate’ and ‘Byzantine Period’ - Wikipedia.org [where the first parameter is the wikipedia article name and the second is the display text you want to use). I don't use the visual editor myself, but there's an option to insert templates and then search for quran or quran-range. If there's no means to use the <code><nowiki>[[w:]]</nowiki></code> tag in the visual editor it's fine to just use the normal linking feature instead.


Someone emailed us a zip file that contained documents relating to the Geocentral Quran. If you're interested in looking at them let me know through our [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Contact_Us email] and I can forward that link to you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:25, 27 May 2014 (PDT)
:For Crone's article you currently only have a short version of the reference. This seems to be unintentional as your first revision on 10 September removed what was the full reference from your initial comments. It would be better to have the more complete version of the Crone reference for your page update. Similarly, for Tesei's article it's great to link the freely accessible academia copy but as well as giving the full reference. An example of a better format is the Tesei reference in the [[Prophecies in the Quran]] article.


== Your Dhul-Qarnayn article helped a former Muslim ==
Lightyears
I've updated the main article.  I'm not sure whether it's public yet. When it is I'll delete the sandbox material to avoid confusion.


Your article was linked [http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/a-friend-has-apostated-67731/index3.html here] (post #22). Starts from #16 [http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/a-friend-has-apostated-67731/index2.html here], saying:
:Also, feel free to add the points you mentioned on the historical attestation of Muhammad talk page, though it should also be mentioned clearly that Ohlig is considered part of the Revisionist school of thought in Islamic studies, specifically the Inârah Institute who are considered a fringe group by other academic scholars. It looks like there is an intention to flesh out the empty sections at some point but it's fine to make those changes now. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 14:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


{{Quote||I know a brother on the internet i speak to daily and he seems to have gotten into this kind of doubt as well and is on the edge of apostasy. If he already hasnt apostatized.
I've added more on David A. King.  Thanks for the technical advice, I'll go over the whole thing tomorrow.
I'm not sure what you mean by a full reference. To include 'https://www.'?  The examples you give don't seem to have this.
Regards Fernando
I can't work out how to edit footnotes.  I suppose it's possible to delete and then add
:Hi, I'm away for a few days with only my phone, but I recommend the source editor if anything doesn't work well with the visual editor.  


What can you advise me to do and help him?
:By full refs I just meant this
:Patricia Crone, ''How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies,'' University of London, Vol. 68, No. 3 (2005), pp. 387-399. Available at http://www.jstor.org/stable/20181949, and in her ''Collected Studies'' (2016).


He seems to have issues with certain verses and ahadith containing information that is completely in contrast with current scientific knowledge or even facts.
:Instead of simply Patricia Crone, ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/20181949 How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living?]'' , also in her ''Collected Studies'' (2016).


---
:The first time a journal article is cited we need to give the full ref. The short version would be fine if it's cited again a 2nd time in the same article. I imagine that was your intention originally.  
...


Next thing you know he sends me wikiislam articles, like this one [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Sun_Setting_in_a_Muddy_Spring_-_Part_One Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring (Part One) - WikiIslam]
:Similarly this would be better:
. Now i cant deal with the technicalities and the arabic to refute these issues. But now he claims that muslims are just trying to twist the meanings of the verses just to get away with the current facts. So it is going to be hard to refute all the issues as i know wikiislam has a whole list concerning the scientific issues.}}
:Tommaso Tesei [https://www.academia.edu/75302962/ The Qurʾān(s) in Context(s)] Journal Asiatique 309.2 (2021): 185-202


Once again great job on the Dhul-Qarnayn articles. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 13:57, 4 August 2014 (PDT)
:Instead of just [https://www.academia.edu/75302962/_The_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81n_s_in_Context_s_Journal_Asiatique_309_2_2021_185_202 Tommaso Tesei]


== Iconoclasm ==
[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


Appparently, Wikiislam doesn't cover iconoclasm (especially Muhammad's) or say vandalism, in any dedicated page. Can you correct me if wrong?  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:52, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Lightyears
:I think you're right. It could make for an interesting and very topical page given events of recent years if there's a decent amount of material to be found in sahih hadiths, maybe also sirat, tafsirs etc. I've no idea how to approve pages or what the processes are for new pages. The best thing for you to do would be to contact the exmna, who I believe have taken over running the site. It looks like Axius and Sahab might have retired as they've been inactive for quite a while now after an immense effort for some years.
I've made some more changes. Would it be possible to finalise the whole thing now?  I've asked some questions, and other readers may have the answers.
:Sure, you can go ahead and add your work into the Mecca article itself. At some point we will add some further content/edits. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 00:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
:You have another interesting sandbox page on claims of evolution that would be worthwhile if it's not already covered. In the first section you should probably also quote 24:45 as it implies that not just the earliest life, but 2 and 4 legged animals (such as birds or cattle) were created from water too, which has no resemblance to sciencific theories. The repeating creation verses are probably resurrection (Muhammad faced a lot of skepticism about resurrection, as the Qur'an records). Jalalayn and ibn Kathir tafsirs for these verses confirm this, though the flood stuff is still worth mentioning too. The article would also benefit from a brief section on the explicit mentions of special creation of Adam that foil attempts to fit human evolution into the Qur'an regardless of how other verses might seem compatible with it. But before going to much more effort it'd be a good idea to get in contact with whoever is running the site now as I don't really want to take on the committment of doing admin such as reviewing and approving stuff and I imagine they probably have a plan for resuming the performance of such tasks in future.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 15:58, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
::Most of them are busy with their other work. But you can approve changes right? Then we might take the evolution article further. @ Iconoclasm, i have expanded this topic with some hadith. @scientific errors: what do you think about the mountains created in 4 days error [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith#Mountains_were_Created_in_Four_Days]?  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:29, 22 September 2016 (EDT)
:::I approved the Iconoclasm hadiths (except one of them for brevity), good stuff. I don't think the mountains one is a strong enough error because the verse talks about a bunch of things, not just the mountains as happening in 4 days.
::::[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=41&tAyahNo=10&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2] and [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2128&Itemid=97] say he put the mountains and also the earth was prepared with crops, plants, food etc in 4 days Even this hasn't happened in 4 days in reality. Then there are hadith which specify that mountains were formed in 1 day. The minimum that we could phrase as an error is: "the author of the Quran is unaware of (or has simply ignored) how long mountains take to form," similar to many other paragraphs in that article. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:33, 24 September 2016 (EDT)
:::::I've added 41:9-10 to the Earth and Heavens created in six days section as the mountain stuff is too vague to merit its own section. The Qur'an itself isn't clear on whether the mountains are placed on day 3 or days 3&4 or 1-4. It weakens the page to rely on tafsirs or hadiths to make a specific error claim. I have however pointed out that mountains continue to rise and fall to this day. It now says as much as we can say on this topic for a Qur'an errors page. It already says that the Qur'an is wrong to say that the heavens and Earth were formed in such short time periods, but I've added some additional commentary on the Earth specifically.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 19:05, 24 September 2016 (EDT)


==Jordanian cartoonist killed just now for making an ISIS and Allah cartoon==
== Hello, are you currently reviewing updates please? ==
I think we should put this on our front page. With Links to news sites.


The second thing I am looking at currently is [[Umm Qirfa]], listed in our tasks. Where shall I prepare my response to the apologists? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:05, 25 September 2016 (EDT)
Hey Lightyears - I hope you are well and have had a great holiday period! You've previously reviewed and accepted/edited many of my updates (and on the shooting stars page) - I was just checking if they were still coming through okay, as some have been here for about a month? Or if you're taking a break just let me know and I'll reach out to another editior. Cheers, CPO675
:I saw this awful story too, and I think it makes as all angry. But I think the old admin guys must have made a decision to stop the Islam in the news stuff on the front page (terrorist attacks etc). It was a never ending task, which is covered by other well known sites which people visit if they want to follow such things. I agree with the decision. I think it diversifies too much to make this a news site.
:Hi, due to external events recently I have had to concentrate on other things and have been unable to look at the wiki. Possibly that may change quite soon but otherwise ASmith should be able to help. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 23:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


Regarding Umm Qirfa, I recommend putting such things in sandbox and when exmna eventually start doing admin they can look at it with you. If there's just a few more things you want to do I can potentially approve it, but I don't want to be regularly working on this site and reviewing stuff. I'm just doing a bit of a blitz of work here recently while I have a little time and motivation and then I want to forget about it.
Okay no worries thank you! Will do (Y)
 
There are only a few other things I intend to do in the foreseeable future: revamp the embryology page (I recently revamped geocentrism), some small improvements to flat earth, and possibly a new page providing evidence that the earliest Muslims believed the Earth was flat (which is useful for flat earth in the Qur'an and sun setting in a muddy spring debates where Muslims sometimes claim with weak evidence that they already knew the Earth was round). My interest in Islam is quite low these days so it's only occasionally I feel like doing stuff here and only on topics I'm interested in and knowledgable about (errors in the Qur'an in etc.). That's also why I'm happy to help with your claims of evolution in the Qur'an page if you finish it and want it approved. I also suggest you add these things from your sandbox: Mountains Stabilize the Earth's Rotation About its Axis & Mountains Absorb Some Waves During Earthquakes
 
to this page if you're finished with those and I'll approve it
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Quran_and_Mountains
 
[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 08:05, 25 September 2016 (EDT)
 
== [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mosques]] ==
 
I made this new location of interesting hadiths about mosques. do you think it is fit for a QHS?
One more topic i want to cover somewhere is torture/punishment in the grave.  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:36, 10 October 2016 (EDT)
:The torture / punishment in the grave could be interesting and is a suitable topic. Looking at the index list [[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars|here]], the topics seem all to be things that are useful in criticism of Islam. I'm not sure what use hadiths about Mosque building or travelling to mosques have for anyone who might visit this site. Someone clicking the page might wonder, "what point are you trying to make with this page?". Go ahead if you want though, but maybe consider whether the Mosque one is worthwhile.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 15:05, 10 October 2016 (EDT)
::I find [http://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/4/8 this] (relatively) the most important one in that case. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 15:30, 10 October 2016 (EDT)
 
==Shia quotes==
Hi, the previous admins said that adding Shia quotes in a Sunni/general article weakens the article because our online critics can quickly dismiss Shias as non-Muslims and thus laugh at us (lol). How about a separate article for Shia hadith, fiqh, scholar fatwas etc?  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 16:07, 18 October 2016 (EDT)
:I think the old admins have a point when Shia quotes are used to make a point about Islam in general, because for Sunnis the Shia evidence may well be irrelevant. But for a page just cataloguing things for reference like the QHS pages, it might be worth making an exception (with some restructuring) for the very important subject of apostasy, simply so that it is easy to find the Shia rulings (both for ex-Shia Muslims (don't want them to feel forgotten either, and their apostasy laws are even more vicious) and waivering Shia Muslims, and also because it's such a common topic of interest for non-Muslims who often may want an overview of apostasy sources for Islam in general (for them Sunni and Shia may both be important). What I will do though is restructure the QHS page and the section in the main apostasy article slightly. I don't intend to dig out Shia hadiths too (I'm just fufilling requests from ex-Muslims at the moment after I told them on reddit about my recent work), but anyone can also then add a subsection under Shia on the QHS page for hadiths later if they wish (and the Qur'an and sirat quotes are useful for both sunni and shia).[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 17:11, 18 October 2016 (EDT)
::Umm Qirfa task completed, more or less. [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith#The_Story_of_Umm_Qirfa] The major apologetic claims I have addressed now.  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:43, 23 October 2016 (EDT)
:::You can add this to the page for approval, but I don't really want to spend time checking and reviewing things anymore (which requires me to familiarise myself with the topic if I'm to do it properly). I could do so for the evolution page too as an exception.
::::Where is the page for approval? Do you have any contacts, emails etc of the exmna guys?  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:13, 23 October 2016 (EDT)
:::::I assumed you were going to incorporate it into this page [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Story_of_Umm_Qirfa] (I just googled wikiislam umm qirfa to see if anything was there already). I actually tried contacting exmna recently to let them know that the google analytics tracking ID needs to be changed to UA-2352016-1 somewhere in the folder http://wikiislam.net/extensions/googleAnalytics/ which I don't have access to (Google analytics hasn't been working since the site was moved to another server late last year because there's a Tracking Code Mismatch error). I tried emailing the President of EXMNA to ask who I could contact about this using his email address on the Staff page of their website, but he didn't reply. Earlier I'd tried their [email protected] email address, but it returns some error about google groups permissions. I guess wikiislam must be a low priority at the moment for them. At least for now they saved the site from disappearing which is the main thing![[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 15:34, 23 October 2016 (EDT)
::::::Victory will be ours. :P [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 15:27, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
 
== Jinns and Science ==
 
What are the exact views of apologists on jinns? Is it something like "they are creatures unknown to current science"? Do you have some good apologist sites claiming this about jinns? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 16:03, 26 October 2016 (EDT)
:It's not something I've ever taken interest in. There's a page here with some stuff on them https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jinn. As for apologetics, I'd imagine there are countless pages of nonsense about them, and lots of exorcism / jinn videos on youtube.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 17:14, 26 October 2016 (EDT)
 
==Editor rights==
 
I lost my editor rights a few days ago and as a result all the pages have pending changes. Can you ask someone about this? I mean why it happened?  [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:18, 27 February 2017 (EST)

Latest revision as of 14:47, 14 January 2024

Dear Lightyears I have completed the rough draft of 'Iddah article (https://wikiislam.net/index.php?title=User_talk:Lehrasap/Sandbox_1). It is requested to please have a look at it and advice the necessary edits and what to further do with it. Thanks.
Lehrasap (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Mecca article

I have revised my proposed additions, mainly to standardise the references.

Thanks Fernando, the ref formatting looks good, though a few extra tips will be useful: When you use the visual editor it seems to be adding the <nowiki></nowiki> tags to external links, which are not necessary (it's better if readers can click the link). I'm not sure why that's happening, but these tags can be removed via the source editor when you update the article itself if the same happens there (please feel free to go ahead and add your updates when you are ready).
Quran verses should be cited using the {{Quran||}} or {{Quran-range|||}} templates so they can be conveniently clicked by readers to check for themselves on the Quranx website. Wikipedia pages (which we sometimes cite for general overviews) can be linked using another tag in a format like this [[w:Petra|Petra]], ‘Climate’ and ‘Byzantine Period’ - Wikipedia.org [where the first parameter is the wikipedia article name and the second is the display text you want to use). I don't use the visual editor myself, but there's an option to insert templates and then search for quran or quran-range. If there's no means to use the [[w:]] tag in the visual editor it's fine to just use the normal linking feature instead.
For Crone's article you currently only have a short version of the reference. This seems to be unintentional as your first revision on 10 September removed what was the full reference from your initial comments. It would be better to have the more complete version of the Crone reference for your page update. Similarly, for Tesei's article it's great to link the freely accessible academia copy but as well as giving the full reference. An example of a better format is the Tesei reference in the Prophecies in the Quran article.

Lightyears I've updated the main article. I'm not sure whether it's public yet. When it is I'll delete the sandbox material to avoid confusion.

Also, feel free to add the points you mentioned on the historical attestation of Muhammad talk page, though it should also be mentioned clearly that Ohlig is considered part of the Revisionist school of thought in Islamic studies, specifically the Inârah Institute who are considered a fringe group by other academic scholars. It looks like there is an intention to flesh out the empty sections at some point but it's fine to make those changes now. Lightyears (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I've added more on David A. King. Thanks for the technical advice, I'll go over the whole thing tomorrow. I'm not sure what you mean by a full reference. To include 'https://www.'? The examples you give don't seem to have this. Regards Fernando I can't work out how to edit footnotes. I suppose it's possible to delete and then add

Hi, I'm away for a few days with only my phone, but I recommend the source editor if anything doesn't work well with the visual editor.
By full refs I just meant this
Patricia Crone, How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 68, No. 3 (2005), pp. 387-399. Available at http://www.jstor.org/stable/20181949, and in her Collected Studies (2016).
Instead of simply Patricia Crone, How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living? , also in her Collected Studies (2016).
The first time a journal article is cited we need to give the full ref. The short version would be fine if it's cited again a 2nd time in the same article. I imagine that was your intention originally.
Similarly this would be better:
Tommaso Tesei The Qurʾān(s) in Context(s) Journal Asiatique 309.2 (2021): 185-202
Instead of just Tommaso Tesei

Lightyears (talk) 22:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Lightyears I've made some more changes. Would it be possible to finalise the whole thing now? I've asked some questions, and other readers may have the answers.

Sure, you can go ahead and add your work into the Mecca article itself. At some point we will add some further content/edits. Lightyears (talk) 00:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello, are you currently reviewing updates please?

Hey Lightyears - I hope you are well and have had a great holiday period! You've previously reviewed and accepted/edited many of my updates (and on the shooting stars page) - I was just checking if they were still coming through okay, as some have been here for about a month? Or if you're taking a break just let me know and I'll reach out to another editior. Cheers, CPO675

Hi, due to external events recently I have had to concentrate on other things and have been unable to look at the wiki. Possibly that may change quite soon but otherwise ASmith should be able to help. Lightyears (talk) 23:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay no worries thank you! Will do (Y)

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