User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

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In answer to your questions, no-one had been planning to bring it back. I think it was deleted and left in the archive during a clear out of scientific miracle articles (there used to be an excessive number with lots of very minor topics). This one may be worth a redo with some of the old content, but probably best to check with ASmith first who was involved in that process. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 01:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


== A barrier between two seas ==
== Pre-Islamic Arabic poetry and Arabian inscription parallels. ==
Strong similarities with immediate environment than special eternal non-influenced by culture god.




Order


# Intro
== Poetry Parallels ==
# What they Quran says
[[Qur'an#Poetry and prose]]
# Why is it incorrect - the science
# Apologist claim? here or above the science?
# refutation of apologist claim
# Why is it incorrect
# Other groups that have the same mythology
# Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides
# The historical context


=== Introduction ===
<u>Articles</u>
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between


When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
* Bauer, T. (2009). "The Relevance Of Early Arabic Poetry For Qur’Anic Studies Including Observations On Kull And On Q 22:27, 26:225, And 52:31". In ''The Qurʾan in Context''. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.185</nowiki> (see in: https://ia800306.us.archive.org/1/items/TheQuranInContext/The%20Quran%20in%20Context.pdf)


* Dmitriev , K 2009 , An Early Christian Arabic Account of the Creation of the World . in A Neuwirth , N Sinai & M Marx (eds) , The Qurʾān in Context : Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu . Texts and Studies on the Qurʾān , vol. 6 , Brill , pp. 349-387 . <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.81</nowiki>


=== The Qur'an ===
Link:https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4426
We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass.
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}


* Problem - the seas do mix - get source, there is no barrier between them - the definition of a barrier is literally something that blocks (so has been stretched here)
https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/4426/K_Dmitriev_EarlyChristianArabic.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
* Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time
* This happens everywhere all across the world - why talking about two seas with 'al' particle (happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water) - historical context
*Doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) - although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic. A specific word for ocean or lake did not exist either.
*Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?
*Much better ways to write this verse that  would actually fit with the science (give examples)
*Link historical context of premeal waters to the whale story too
*Coral does not occur in fresh water, which causes coral bleaching <ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs Corals and Coral Reefs] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim


{{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.
{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}
(يَبْغِيَانِ  ''yabghiyāni - they transgress'') (بَيْنَهُمَا ''baynahumā - Between both of them'') (''l-baḥrayni - the two seas'')


* https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-new-history-of-arabia-written-in-stone?utm_source=chatgpt.com
* https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/en/projects/the-quran-and-pre-islamic-poetry-worldviews-negotiated?utm_source=chatgpt.com


Again, there is a barrier between the two seas "al-bahrain, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ".  ''l-baḥrayni''
=== Morals ===
{{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}}
daf


=== Cosmology ===


Another reference to "the two seas" (''l-baḥrayni'') is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god:
==== Mountains ====
sds
{{Quote|Neuwirth, Angelika. <i>The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 2.1: Early Middle Meccan Suras: The New Elect (p. 162).</i> Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.|Not only is this metonymy immediately understandable thanks to the early ‘excuse’ in Q 79:32: wa-l-jibāla arsāhā (“and established the mountains firmly”), it is also already prepared in the poetry (see Zuhayr 13:101: a-lā lā arā ʿalā l-hawādithi bāqiyan wa-lā khālidan illā l-jibāla l-rawāsiyā, “I see nothing that can withstand the processes or is eternal but the established mountains”; see SEAP, 516). Because it is based on the image of the anchor throwing, cf. Noah’s Ark Q 11:41: wa-qāla rkabū fīhā bi-smi llāhi majrāhā wa-mursāhā (“He said: ‘Embark in it, in the name of God make it journey and drop anchor.’​”). The idea of the mountains as supporting pillars on which the tent of Heaven rests can already be found in the Psalms, for example Ps 104, which is reflected in the Qurʾan in Q 78 (see HC 1, 274–289).}}


{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}}
=== Style ===
dsf


The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.
=== Words ===
Direct phrases


=== '''Apologists claim''' ===
=== Ruins ''aṭlāl'' ( ''sing.'' ''ṭalal'') ===
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them.
https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/10.3366/ccs.2022.0454
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4)


Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition
https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20180820-the-6th-century-poems-making-a-comeback
(zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)</b>


This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}}
=== Saj3 ===
- in the above book, they have both enhaced itThe words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition” have been added on to Figure 4 by the apologists, the book does not claim such a thing.
[https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects. https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects.]


However critics point out, as above, that  a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing. this is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena
=== Negative textuality ===


== Inscriptions ==
pp40 Ahmed


For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html
== External Links ==
 
* dd
 
==References==
There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes
<references />
 
 
Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas
 
 
 
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]].
 
It may further be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath". Wensinck explains, "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).
 
Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.
 
== Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr ==
 
=== The two seas in Islamic literature ===
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.
18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?”
18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.”
18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.”
18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.”
18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.”
18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.”
18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.”
18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.”
18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.
18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}
 
* Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions
* Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)-  only hadith name him
* the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back
 
=== Other religions an cosmic waters ===
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).

Latest revision as of 10:39, 20 July 2025

Pre-Islamic Arabic poetry and Arabian inscription parallels.

Strong similarities with immediate environment than special eternal non-influenced by culture god.


Poetry Parallels

Qur'an#Poetry and prose

Articles

  • Dmitriev , K 2009 , An Early Christian Arabic Account of the Creation of the World . in A Neuwirth , N Sinai & M Marx (eds) , The Qurʾān in Context : Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu . Texts and Studies on the Qurʾān , vol. 6 , Brill , pp. 349-387 . https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.81

Link:https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4426

https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/4426/K_Dmitriev_EarlyChristianArabic.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Morals

daf

Cosmology

Mountains

sds

Not only is this metonymy immediately understandable thanks to the early ‘excuse’ in Q 79:32: wa-l-jibāla arsāhā (“and established the mountains firmly”), it is also already prepared in the poetry (see Zuhayr 13:101: a-lā lā arā ʿalā l-hawādithi bāqiyan wa-lā khālidan illā l-jibāla l-rawāsiyā, “I see nothing that can withstand the processes or is eternal but the established mountains”; see SEAP, 516). Because it is based on the image of the anchor throwing, cf. Noah’s Ark Q 11:41: wa-qāla rkabū fīhā bi-smi llāhi majrāhā wa-mursāhā (“He said: ‘Embark in it, in the name of God make it journey and drop anchor.’​”). The idea of the mountains as supporting pillars on which the tent of Heaven rests can already be found in the Psalms, for example Ps 104, which is reflected in the Qurʾan in Q 78 (see HC 1, 274–289).
Neuwirth, Angelika. The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 2.1: Early Middle Meccan Suras: The New Elect (p. 162). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Style

dsf

Words

Direct phrases

Ruins aṭlāl ( sing. ṭalal)

https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/10.3366/ccs.2022.0454

https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20180820-the-6th-century-poems-making-a-comeback

Saj3

https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects.

Negative textuality

Inscriptions

pp40 Ahmed

External Links

  • dd

References

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