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== A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans ==


== Pre-Islamic Arabic poetry and Arabian inscription parallels. ==
Strong similarities with immediate environment than special eternal non-influenced by culture god.


Order


# <s>Intro</s>
# <s>What they Quran says - short paragraph on the science</s>
# <s>Apologist claim? here or above the science?</s>
# <s>Why is it incorrect - the science and refutation of apologist claim.</s>
# <s>refutation of apologist claim</s>
# <s>Why is it incorrect</s>
# The historical context
# Other groups that have the same mythology
# Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides


'''<br />Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm'''  
== Poetry Parallels ==
[[Qur'an#Poetry and prose]]


=== Introduction ===
<u>Articles</u>
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a batter between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.<ref>Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, [https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jaos/article/view/1669 https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19.] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19</ref> Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water not taking the verse literally.<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref>


Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description in several key aspects as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
* Bauer, T. (2009). "The Relevance Of Early Arabic Poetry For Qur’Anic Studies Including Observations On Kull And On Q 22:27, 26:225, And 52:31". In ''The Qurʾan in Context''. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.185</nowiki> (see in: https://ia800306.us.archive.org/1/items/TheQuranInContext/The%20Quran%20in%20Context.pdf)
=== The Qur'an ===
There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact same term being used 5 times in the Quran. 


We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.  
* Dmitriev , K 2009 , An Early Christian Arabic Account of the Creation of the World . in A Neuwirth , N Sinai & M Marx (eds) , The Qurʾān in Context : Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu . Texts and Studies on the Qurʾān , vol. 6 , Brill , pp. 349-387 . <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.81</nowiki>
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>:{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22):


{{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}}
Link:https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4426


Again, there is a barrier between the two seas. {{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}}
https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/4426/K_Dmitriev_EarlyChristianArabic.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:


{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}}
* https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-new-history-of-arabia-written-in-stone?utm_source=chatgpt.com
* https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/en/projects/the-quran-and-pre-islamic-poetry-worldviews-negotiated?utm_source=chatgpt.com


The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.
=== Morals ===
daf


=== '''Apologists claims''' ===
=== Cosmology ===


==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ====
==== Mountains ====
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in this [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link] which are repeated on many Islamic websites.
sds
{{Quote|Neuwirth, Angelika. <i>The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 2.1: Early Middle Meccan Suras: The New Elect (p. 162).</i> Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.|Not only is this metonymy immediately understandable thanks to the early ‘excuse’ in Q 79:32: wa-l-jibāla arsāhā (“and established the mountains firmly”), it is also already prepared in the poetry (see Zuhayr 13:101: a-lā lā arā ʿalā l-hawādithi bāqiyan wa-lā khālidan illā l-jibāla l-rawāsiyā, “I see nothing that can withstand the processes or is eternal but the established mountains”; see SEAP, 516). Because it is based on the image of the anchor throwing, cf. Noah’s Ark Q 11:41: wa-qāla rkabū fīhā bi-smi llāhi majrāhā wa-mursāhā (“He said: ‘Embark in it, in the name of God make it journey and drop anchor.’​”). The idea of the mountains as supporting pillars on which the tent of Heaven rests can already be found in the Psalms, for example Ps 104, which is reflected in the Qurʾan in Q 78 (see HC 1, 274–289).}}


The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]:
=== Style ===
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4)
dsf


Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition
=== Words ===
(zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)</b>
Direct phrases


This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).}}
=== Ruins ''aṭlāl'' ( ''sing.'' ''ṭalal'') ===
''Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' as translated into English by several authors in the Quran with the scientific book.''
https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/10.3366/ccs.2022.0454
==== Issues with this interpretation ====


===== Problems with miracle claim =====
https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20180820-the-6th-century-poems-making-a-comeback
Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate:
# Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one.
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle; ''“The drinkable, sweet water,'' <nowiki/>''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.” - Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC''''then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.” - Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC'')<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
# This description also implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone believing there was no mixi<nowiki/>ng at all between them.
A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].''


===== Problems with general accuracy =====
=== Saj3 ===
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayn).'''
[https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects. https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects.]


* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
=== Negative textuality ===
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea.
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayn'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).


# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.''
== Inscriptions ==
pp40 Ahmed


</ref> i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena.
== External Links ==
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass.
* dd
# It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes - e.g.<nowiki/> formation of deserts and forest, and so could have just left it out completely and avoided confusion.
==References==
# If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably 3 bodies of water in, and the language could reflect the mixing<nowiki/> zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from the oth<nowiki/>er specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.
<references />
 
==== '''Two actual seas''' ====
Secondly, it states:
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.  This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.  For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.  When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.  The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13).
 
Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge)
 
Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them.  Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b>  (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}}
 
===== Problems with miracle claim and general science =====
* Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
* Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> And there are more examples of sills<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/science/sill Sill.] Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.</ref>, with some notable examples given [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill here] - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone<ref>''[https://www.britannica.com/science/halocline Halocline.]'' Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.</ref>, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia<ref>[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html ''Ocean Mixing.''] Water Encyclopaedia. ''Piers Chapman.'' </ref>: ''<nowiki/>'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'''
 
== Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr ==
 
=== Antiquity interpretation ===
There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which we will discuss below in the historical context. Which fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view which was present across this region, and was also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.
 
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.
 
The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>' which can be read on Jstor examining the Qur'ans verse, especially regarding words that have puzzled Islamic commentators. The full article can be read in the link which provides much deeper arguments than the summary:
 
The story is taken from the Syriac Alexander Legend, which separate part of this chapter 18 Surah al-Kahf come from (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]'')
 
{{Quote|Tommaso Tesei's. 2015. JSTOR. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context.|..starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life.  Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...
 
When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...
 
..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. ..
 
..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers...
 
In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..}}Other classical interpretations - Ptolemy's view?
 
=== The two seas in Islamic literature ===
After {{Quran|18|60}} says he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many ages, implying this junction is extremely far from any land, taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.<ref>[https://www.royalcaribbean.com/guides/transatlantic-history-crossing-cruise#:~:text=Back%20in%20Columbus'%20day%2C%20sailing,was%20largely%20based%20on%20luck. ''How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it.''] Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.</ref> Which should have been far longer than any close ocean as later Islamic scholars have suggested
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60}}|(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many years".}}
 
In this story Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral and tasks and asks Moses not to ask him about them - however Moses does, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts. He made a hole in the boat so it couldn't. His knowledge is so great and usually only reserved for God, yet he is able to teach such an importatn prophet as Moses and get annoyed with him - this fits coming from a special sea.
 
'''Only he will stop''' - remove long unnecessary section if it doesn't add anything {{Quran|18|60-82}}{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.
18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?”
18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.”
18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.”
18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.”
18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.”
18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.”
18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.”
18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.”
18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.
18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}
 
 
 
This verse is expanded upon here: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}}
* Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean
 
Usually appears after creation events: Q55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, ({{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay.), and 27:61 - verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth.
=== Islamic Views ===
'''Hadith and Qur'an'''
 
In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see [[Buraq]]), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates Euphrates]. This clearly backs up the idea that fresh water comes in via a freshwater cosmic ocean
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|54|429}}|...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...}}
And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:
{{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}}
 
From this Quran verse we see the highest heaven has a sea:
 
{{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allah is above that, the Blessed and Exalted."}}
 
'''Islamic Commentaries'''
 
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], a prominent Sunni Scholar
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
Similarly Ibn Kathir
 
later commentaries after the flat earth model was rejected by astronomers state this barrier refers to land
{{Quote|2=(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands....
 
..<b>(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.</b>}}
This is obviously incorrect as coral doesn't form in fresh water, let alone springs. And the rivers are especially not connected - so is not a barrier between two seas?
 
large lakes referred to as seas, there is not a barrier between them. There are many lakes, springs and lagoons all over the world, they are not one body of water as the quran claims.
 
[https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20 (https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20])
 
 
Al-Tabari end of the Earth https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1
 
This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Ar-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.
 
'''Map of world with encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ''' https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064) '''P57 KMMS map Karen C. Pinto. In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral'''
 
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature ===
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]].
 
The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth
 
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1:10}}|(Genesis 1:6-10)  6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. }}
 
 
Critics also wonder why if it really meant a natural phenomena such as the meeting of two seas, why would they describe one that also matched a highly mistaken antiquity view of the world - for exmaple there is nothing about the creation of forests or deserts. The lines are not needed nor do they add anything to the text.
 
== Delete ==
The sea and rivers aren't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier is false. Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time
 
Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?
 
*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix
*- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
*When did the Gibraltar sill get created? Not permanent
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2)
 
== External links ==
 
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle'''
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video''
 
== References ==

Latest revision as of 10:39, 20 July 2025

Pre-Islamic Arabic poetry and Arabian inscription parallels.

Strong similarities with immediate environment than special eternal non-influenced by culture god.


Poetry Parallels

Qur'an#Poetry and prose

Articles

  • Dmitriev , K 2009 , An Early Christian Arabic Account of the Creation of the World . in A Neuwirth , N Sinai & M Marx (eds) , The Qurʾān in Context : Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu . Texts and Studies on the Qurʾān , vol. 6 , Brill , pp. 349-387 . https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.81

Link:https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4426

https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/4426/K_Dmitriev_EarlyChristianArabic.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Morals

daf

Cosmology

Mountains

sds

Not only is this metonymy immediately understandable thanks to the early ‘excuse’ in Q 79:32: wa-l-jibāla arsāhā (“and established the mountains firmly”), it is also already prepared in the poetry (see Zuhayr 13:101: a-lā lā arā ʿalā l-hawādithi bāqiyan wa-lā khālidan illā l-jibāla l-rawāsiyā, “I see nothing that can withstand the processes or is eternal but the established mountains”; see SEAP, 516). Because it is based on the image of the anchor throwing, cf. Noah’s Ark Q 11:41: wa-qāla rkabū fīhā bi-smi llāhi majrāhā wa-mursāhā (“He said: ‘Embark in it, in the name of God make it journey and drop anchor.’​”). The idea of the mountains as supporting pillars on which the tent of Heaven rests can already be found in the Psalms, for example Ps 104, which is reflected in the Qurʾan in Q 78 (see HC 1, 274–289).
Neuwirth, Angelika. The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 2.1: Early Middle Meccan Suras: The New Elect (p. 162). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Style

dsf

Words

Direct phrases

Ruins aṭlāl ( sing. ṭalal)

https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/10.3366/ccs.2022.0454

https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20180820-the-6th-century-poems-making-a-comeback

Saj3

https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/07/the-quran-in-relation-to-pre-islamic-poetry.html#:~:text=The%20Quran's%20poetic%20style%20seems,different%20Pre%2DIslamic%20Arabic%20dialects.

Negative textuality

Inscriptions

pp40 Ahmed

External Links

  • dd

References

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